stuff like pinkwind (which i've heard; got the board tape) and hawkfairies (which i havent heard)....is an emperor's new clothes kinda deal...you keep waiting for someone to stand up and say "look, this is sloppy crap from a bunch of stoned people"....and as such it's not heinous, but if i couldnt trade for it as a tape there's no way i'd spend money on it...