OFF: "musicians made drug use look tempting?" ^_~ =koff=

[Ted Jackson jr. s2h2]

> From:          M Holmes <fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK>
> > But you have to remember that over here, the political Right has
> > adopted the pro gun stance, lured by the money of the gun lobbies.
> > And, the Right is also the party that is against all the other
> > liberties that you [and I] advocate.
>
> Is that fairly commonly the case? Here in the UK many on the right have
> libertarian tendencies on at least some of these issues

They perceive themselves as freedom-loving individualists on the
order of their hero, my namesake T. Roosevelt, and also see
themselves as an extension of the pioneers who 'tamed' the wilderness
[bet the Native Americans thought the wilderness was just fine before
the Euros arrived, eh].

But when you study the demographics, the same folks that are pro gun
are quites often the anti-abortion, anti-personal choice types.  And
if you think that American NRA members think it's okay for any 2
adults of whatever gender to have sex, then, well...



, though as with
> Iain Duncan-Smith, who cp-wrote a book "Saturn's Children" which
> advocated drug legalisation and medicalisation, they can get slapped
> down if they make this too public (in the UK, writing something in a
> hardback isn't considered "public").
>

> Of course we don't really have a libertarian party (well, not one that
> currently has more than eight members) as opposed to think-tanks, so
> maybe there's nowhere else for them to go.
>
We have one, but it's woefully powerless.  Still, the upcoming
elections might provide a bit of a jolt to the system.
Independent-party candidates are coming out of the woodwork, and a
guy like Trump could finance his own election campaign
single-handedly...

>
> > > > Worst thing about prohibition was that it actually became a
> > > > constitutional amendment!
> > >
> > > Yeah, Jefferson saw early on the danger of giving the Federal government
> > > power. That amendment was as much an abuse of the Constitution as the
> > > Marijuana Stamp Tax. Bluenoses and racists basically trod all over a
> > > noble experiment in liberty.
> >
> > Yet the pro-gun people hide behind that very constitution
>
> It's not hiding behind it simply to read what it says.

No, but when you consider it as an iron-clad document that can only
be interpreted literally, then there's a problem.  Evolution is
necessary...
>
>
> Let's not forget that HJefferson is on record as believing that armed
> revolution every 20 years would be necessary to keep governments in
> line.
>
Well, I think that was likely a rhetorical device.  Remember, a lot
of TJ's orations came in the aftermath of a big revolution and were
aimed at a people flush with newfound independence...

>
> Indeed. Many of the bureaucracies involved in alcohol Prohibition became
> fervent anti-drug advocates during repeal. It safeguarded their wages
> and powerbases.
>
That's exactly why this insane 'war on drugs' has dragged on.
Self-perpetuating money machine that no-one wants to shut down.  All
those idiot bureaucrats might then hhave to look for a real job!

> > Yet nowadays they are only to
> > happy to make criminals out of people over weed.  I live in a state
> > with pretty much the harshest drug laws in the US!
>
> My sympathies. It's worst effects are the repeal of liberties on a
> casual basis in order to "win" the Drug War. I have in mind stuff like
> confiscation without conviction - something that's now being hawked by
> New Nanny drug warriors in Scotland.
>
Fight it, man!  We Americans just rolled over and let them do it.  I
do expect, though, that the supreme Court will eventually knock it
down...

> However, I think that it's true that Prohibitions are meant to affect
> "them" (the folks on the wrong side of the tracks).

Yes! Yes! Yes!  Drug prohibition smacks of racism...

 When zealotry begins
> to force an effect on the middle classes (such as confiscating their
> houses, cars and boats because their student son grew some pot) then
> it's on its way out, just as with alcohol.

Agreed, but what mystifies me is how these prohibitions are allowed
to start?  Well, nowadays I understand it, as Americans refuse to
vote [currently around 45% voter participation in national
elections--sometimes much less in smaller ones] It must make you
Europeans shake your heads in disgust.  Why is it that you all are
smart enough to use the political process while only a small handful
of us do?


 Unfortunately I believe that
> the US has some sort of Prohibition virus and it'll simply be replaced
> by another one that's more guaranteed to affect "them".
>
I think that's true.  An extension of the 'frontier mentality?'

> What's listed as a killer on every packet and used almost solely by the
> lower orders? Watch this space...
>
Not quite.  Tobacco use is pretty high in Canada, and almost no
poverty there, and cigs cost a freakin' fortune in Canada.  guess
they just like to smoke?

>
> Drugs are now an industry bigger than oil. They're also a damn site
> politically easier to tax at punitive 90% rates than is petrol. You
> could almost abolish income tax and still put every drug dealer in the
> land out of business overnight.

Exactly right.  But see, the US gov't would then have to admit
defeat, and they hate doing that.  Tehy just have to be right about
everything...

>
> > > Indeed so. You guys were founded by libertarians and colonised by
> > > puritans. They're still slugging it out in the abortion wars, the gun
> > > rights battles, and the War On Some Drugs.
> >
> > But, as I said above, the pro-gun people also embrace the trashing of
> > just about every other liberty in favor of some sort of biblical
> > agenda that only they can comprehend...
>
> Take 'em on regarding their hypocrisy: ask 'em what sort of freedom is
> worth defending by gun ownership if it's not the freedom to eat what you
> want, smoke what you want, gamble if you want, read and watch what you
> want and have sex with whoever you want, however you want, and in trade
> for whatever they want if they're agreeable.

Good luck!  It would be a hard sell.  Most of 'em only want to
protect their own personal freedom...
>